Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch and welcome to another episode of Meta Views recorded live at the Academy of the Impossible, where I'm actually now doing daily walks with the goats.

And it is fantastic for my sanity and thinking power.

And we got Jeremiah Patterson back and I kind of titled this news Attention and Power.

Although we are in the tail end of season two here at Metaviews, and our conversations are very spontaneous, they're all over the map.

We're trying to really allow for a lot of improvisation, a lot of riffing, a lot of emotional analysis of kind of what's happening in the news, in the world and everything in between.

And I personally have a few things I do want to talk to you about today.

Jeremiah, I hope you also have come with your own kind of modest agenda or at least some things in the back of your head that you're hoping to crack out.

But as you know, we start every episode of Meta Views with the news, partly because Meta Views publishes a daily newsletter.

Although, you know, when I say daily, it's kind of like four days a week these days because, you know, spring, the growing season, has just been quite a bit in terms of my own physical body and ability to be doing what I do.

But our issue, our current recent issue is around the machinery of misogyny and really getting into kind of the way in which online culture has been really undermining a lot of men's sense of self and unfortunately their violence towards others.

And I'm currently working on a post that I may publish this evening, I may save till tomorrow, which is on Netanyahu.

And Netanyahu is kind of a terror unto himself and how on the one hand he does mirror Trump in terms of everything he does is for his own self enrichment and most importantly, to stay out of jail.

But he has a ruthlessness that makes him a very dangerous, dangerous person.

So I'm currently, I kind of got the research done and I'm working on what the format of the piece is going to be.

But I have as the purpose of this news segment, an opportunity to throw to our guest, which normally they are not as avid a news producer as yourself, but we nonetheless want to get our guest perspective on the news, on what they think our audience should know.

So it's an open ended question.

I think you and I are going to talk about news throughout today's episode, not just here at the forefront.

But I'll give you the same question I give everybody.

You know, what are you paying attention to, Jeremiah?

What's kind of on your news Agenda.

As we reach you here on this Friday, the last of May, there is.

An interesting story unfolding with regards to what Trump is doing at the epa.

And like the guy that he put at the EPA is like Lee Zeldin and he is basically cozying up to oil lobbyists and everything and all the air pollutants.

It's the same, it's the same situation where you're supposed to be regulating these agencies as an Environmental Protection Agency.

That's what it's called.

It's just appointing people to positions that are contrary to the mission of that agency to destroy it from inside.

Well, and that's just it.

I think for the last 10 years we've heard this phrase in policy circles called regulatory capture.

And it's when industry has so much influence on the regulator that they become ineffective.

But this is more, this, to your point, is regulatory destruction, regulatory sabotage driven by the interests of industry, but with very long lasting effects.

And relatedly, I saw a fascinating interview on Democracy now with Amy Goodman that looked at that, compared our current moment with the McCarthy era, where the McCarthy era was on one end an attack against civil servants, an attack against, against left leaning academics and cultural leaders.

But this is greater because this isn't so much an attack on individuals, it's an attack on institutions, it's an attack on regulatory agencies as a whole, not so much the individuals who work within it.

And that suggests that the impact of this particular sabotage campaign, for lack of a better phrase, will be felt for some time.

I'm curious if, as part of your work and your reporting, you've done any interviews or done any research around the long term impacts of the fire, I want to say fire sale, but the five alarm fire that is happening to the regulatory bodies in the United States.

And to your point about McCarthy, that definitely is a parallel that can be drawn.

But I think what people sort of misconstrue about that moment is that as you said, it was attacks on individuals.

I mean, what we're seeing now is like attacks on institutions and gutting it completely because the administrative state is out to get conservatives.

But I have interviewed, you know, experts and journalists and one of the things that I asked them about in regard to the destruction that's happening with these agencies is what's the long term impact?

And like it's, it's honestly the most horrifying question once you get to the end of the interview because some of them will say, well, some of this damage is irreversible or it's going to take, you know, decades or centuries to clean up.

And it's like, you know, it's just.

Oh, I think the exhale, the sigh is fundamentally the answer.

You know, while on the one hand there are a lot of misleading ideas and philosophies driving, you know, the policies, I think the one policy that they do share, the one ideology they do share that I can't refute, is the idea that if they destroy the administrative state, if they discredit the regulatory agencies, then it allows for might is right, then it allows for industry and corporations to do what they wish.

And on some level they're not wrong about that analysis.

But I actually, where I do disagree is I don't think industry will be successful.

And I say this because regulation leads to trust and, and you need trust to actually deal with other businesses, to deal with partners, to deal with people in general.

So that's where I do share the broad exhale, the broad holy fuck, what the hell is going on?

But I still have a little bit of hope that they are shooting themselves in the foot and that in the end there will be opportunities for us to rebuild, to reconfigure, to reconceive the role of the state.

And that nicely segues us to our WTF segment or what's the future Where We Are, a future centric show.

And here, Jeremiah, I'll give you where I normally just throw to the guest and say, hey, what's on your event horizon?

I will give you a more two part question on that because on the one hand, as a journalist, your event horizon is very much part of your work in terms of trying to figure out what stories to follow, trying to connect the dots between different events.

But I'm also curious on what you see as your future and the future of the Jeremiah Patterson show and your thinking as not just a journalist but as a news producer and someone who is really thinking about how you do your work.

I say this because since you and I first started talking, your productivity has shot through the roof.

But, but I think so is your momentum right in that I think you got a lot of wind in your sails and it's giving you a sense of your own future.

So feel free to take the question in either or both directions in terms of what's on your event horizon, both individually as a professional, but also for us as a society in terms of what you're paying attention to in your own professional endeavors.

That is, that is definitely a great question.

And I, I would definitely say the same thing.

The productivity has, has shot up significantly since we last spoke.

I guess covering the first Trump administration when I was like, you know, 13 to like 17, that was like an interesting time, but it wasn't as like fast paced as this.

And that's, that's what I try to do.

But also highlighting stuff that's, that's they're also doing that many people aren't talking about, like, you know, trying to destroy the US Institute of Peace for whatever reason.

I mean, it's just like these low level government agencies that function perfectly, that are fine, that, you know, help us in society that are being targeted.

And I just feel like it's a time where I have a duty as a journalist to be even more active and to work even harder to do even more interviews because the information has to get out there.

You know, we're living in an age of misinformation.

So there's a lot going on with that.

I feel like where we are in terms of a society looking at this as a future is going to have to be continued resistance to what's happening here.

You know, the free press is under attack, npr, you know, getting defunded, PBS as well, and they're fighting back.

So I think it's standing up for the free press in this moment and the institutions as well, and just making sure that we're continuing to push stories out there that are not necessarily talked about in the mainstream press.

Right.

On local coverage as well, because you and I.

Please continue.

You and I have spoken about Huey Long.

So I, I did a segment, a couple, I think it was last week about what Republicans are doing in the states.

And it's like focusing on what's happening in your state because that's how it starts right there.

Well, and let me ask you this follow up question.

And I did that kind of segue to indicate we're now into the feature conversation because I do want to talk about news and attention and power because you touched upon something there which I think is the operational question that all journalists face, I would argue it's also the ethical question that journalists face.

But from managing your time and resources, it's kind of the same thing, which is, what are the stories you chase?

Are they going to be the stories that are getting the most attention?

Are they going to be the stories that you think are the most important and crucial?

Right.

And this is, I think, a something that a lot of journalists are not able to take the time to reflect on because they're just constantly working.

But you are in the unique position where the only people ostensibly, that you're answerable to is your audience.

So you have, as an independent journalist, a greater degree of autonomy and power to choose what you cover.

But I'm curious what pressures you face, either internal, in terms of yourself and your own kind of ambitions or ethics or moral code, but also the people around you, your readers.

Right.

The people who comment.

How do you wake up every day and decide what to chase, what to cover?

I'm curious more to provoke you to think about this out loud, you know, so that we can understand, because I think this is a question a lot of journalists wrestle with all the time, but don't always get the space to really reflect on it.

Yes, that is definitely a dilemma that I really have every single day.

Waking up and looking at the news stories, because it's almost like you're toggling with is the best, worst story to cover sense.

Yeah, that's a great phrase.

Do I want to cover, you know, what they're doing to, you know, deport kids with cancer?

Or do I want to cover this massive budget bill that's going to cut Medicare and Medicaid?

So it's like constantly tugging with the best, worst story to cover.

And it's.

It's a lot.

I mean, sometimes I'll have to siphon through segments, and I have, like four or five different segments, like when I do, like, my evening shows, and it's like, okay, what's gonna be the story that I put at the top?

Because that's what I'm telling listeners is most important.

And sometimes it looks like covering stories that aren't getting enough attention and that may be less views, that may be less likes, but it really has to be the passion that pushes you forward to that point.

What tools do you rely upon?

In the past, we've talked about the sources and the media that you consume to get ideas and get inspiration.

But part of the thread that I've been hearing in our conversation today is the potential threat of information overload.

And you answered it in terms of what's the best, worst story, but what tools?

And I mean this both intuitively in terms of, like, search engines or websites, but also more from a productivity perspective.

How are you managing all this stuff?

Like, how is your workflow developing?

You know, ChatGPT is a very great tool.

They have like, this.

And it's a search engine now.

Yes, they have this very.

This.

They have this, like, tool that's, like, for deep research.

So I could be like, please find me articles on Trump dismantling, you know, Inspector General, you know, something like that.

And so they'll find me, like, a bunch of articles on that.

But what I also do is I go to my sources.

I rely very heavily on investigative journalist outlets like ProPublica, the Intercept, also reading stuff like the New Republic, that's very upfront.

I just.

I rely on sites like that.

And then if it's, like, legal or anything to do with the government, I'll go to, like, government executive or courthouse news.

And so it's like, as a journalist, having different sources that you rely on for your news and making sure that you're constantly checking in on those.

Because sometimes there will be stories that the mainstream press is covering, but if you go to those different sites, you'll find underreported stories that.

That need pressing.

ATT and going back to.

I like using the phrase stakeholders to kind of describe the audience.

The other phrase I often use is constituency.

In the sense that when you're an independent journalist, as I was saying earlier, you're kind of answerable to your audience.

Right?

You're answerable to the people whose support you're trying to earn.

I'll disclose from my own personal experience, my mom reads every issue that I put out, and she's usually the first person to comment.

So she's like my North Star, right?

Like, she is the person I'm kind of writing for and thinking for.

Do you have people like that in your audience?

Like, when you're writing, when you're producing content, who in your audience are you thinking of in terms of if they get upset, if they have an issue with your work, they're the ones you're most kind of accountable to.

And you're like, oh, damn, I really gotta fix that, because I don't want them to be pissed off.

I'm curious if you have that kind of same, you know, stakeholder relationship.

I definitely always have believed that community is important, especially with, with your audience, because you're building a connection through the camera.

I feel as if, I guess the pressure honestly is, is highly intense.

Like even yesterday recording, even though I've been doing this for like nearly seven years, I was super nervous to get on camera and to record because, I mean, it gets to a certain point where it's, it's not just you in front of the camera anymore.

You're broadcasting to like hundreds or thousands of people and you have a responsibility not to say anything wrong.

If you mess up, you have to, you know, go back on it.

And it's just, it's, it's a huge responsibility.

So I definitely do feel that pressure and I would feel like it's among some of the most loyal members of the audience who are always, you know, liking or commenting.

You definitely feel an obligation to, to get it right, but also to go above and beyond.

And I feel like as an independent journalist, that kind of gives you a perfectionist mindset where sometimes you could even develop an unhealthy work habit.

Well, and we'll come back to that.

But, but as a parallel, speaking as an, an old guy to a relative young guy, your hardest and most severe critic will be you in the future.

Yes.

That when you look back at this work after you've aged and you go, oh, man, if I only knew then what I do now.

That's where even now I'm anticipating that the audience for this is me in the future.

And I'm going to be very self critical.

There is a few things I wanted to pick out before we come back to that, you know, work life balance.

And it really, resistance has been a kind of through line in a lot of your work.

So I'm curious to talk again in terms of the long terms, some of the stories that you're keeping an eye on and some of the stuff we've mentioned today so far is like the attacks against regulatory agencies, even innocuous ones.

And with that, I think there's a kind of a slice of corruption that we've seen in Trump's recent Middle east visit.

Right.

Where it seems that it's the Trump Corporation that's benefiting even more than the United States of America for its foreign policy work.

But where is your kind of radar in terms of the other.

I was going to sort of jump in when you were talking about the first Trump administration compared to the second Trump administration, that it seems the biggest lesson he's gleaned is speed, that the faster he goes, the Harder it is for the Democrats to respond, the harder it is for the public to keep up.

So amidst that kind of high velocity news environment, what are you keeping your eyes on long term?

And you alluded to local news, so I'm curious if there's particular areas of the country or particular kind of local contests or local issues.

Again, brief the metaviews crew on.

As we watch America, what are some of the key stories?

What are some of the key metrics or indices that you're following that we should be following?

So I just, I think that story in and of itself is insane.

And then he's also considering running for governor.

He's the same guy that wants to put Trump Bibles into Oklahoma schools.

And there has been pushback on that, not just in protest, but also in litigation.

And it's going to be interesting to see if that actually succeeds.

So once again, that's part of like the ground roots resistance that we're seeing happen.

I know in Nashville, Tennessee, there is a local story where there was pushback on the mass deportation campaign there.

As you know, they're having like, you know, ICE and local law enforcement working together to do traffic stops to arrest migrants there.

And there's like this local action group that just started and they're alerting migrants and individuals to not go to certain places or to not take certain exits.

So it's just the ground roots resistance that is, that is building right now across, you know, the country.

And it's, you'll find a lot of that in your local stories, even if you can't find it in the mainstream press.

And so I just feel like that gives, that gives me hope looking at it from, from the outside in.

Well, and to your point, often, you know, connecting on social media with local activists, you know, they're the kind of primary sources in a lot of these news stories that in cultivating those relationships, it makes it easier to, you know, see this resistance rising before the mainstream media does, but before the traditional media.

And I want to come back to the kind of role of local media and get some of your thoughts on that.

But the other dynamic of the speed of the Trump administration is to really has been their attempt to keep the judiciary on the flat foot, to kind of have the courts, the slowness of the courts be a weapon for the Trump administration in terms of pushing its policies forward.

But it does seem as if we're seeing a bit of a judicial pushback of trying to say, hey, you can't do these things.

They ruled this week that a lot of the tariffs that had passed are not constitutional, and there have been a range of other judicial rulings.

What's your take here?

I mean, both.

Do you think that the power of the judiciary will matter or will Trump defy the judiciary and.

And create a larger crisis because he'll just be like, nah, fuck you, to the courts and continue to do whatever policy he wants?

I mean, Stephen Miller seems to be giving that kind of posture as someone who follows this much closer than I do.

To what extent is the judiciary part of the resistance or more just a bump in the road in terms of the ongoing rise of the Trumpian authoritarianism?

I think, to use an overused terminology, it's, it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

And I'm kind of pessimistic on the if it's going to get better part because we've seen flat out disregard for, you know, the judiciary branch.

I mean, we just had a federal judge write a scathing rebuke of the Trump administration trying to go after law firms, and a federal judge in the ruling is using, like, exclamation marks, and judges don't use exclamation marks because they try to maintain decorum.

So I think that's, it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

I mean, with the U.

S.

Court of International Trade, what just happened there is they said, hey, you can't do this with the terrorists because it's unconstitutional and that power belongs to Congress.

You're also just, you can't declare tariffs on every country in the world.

And what happened with that is that basically they appealed it, it went to the appeals courts, and they have allowed Trump to temporarily do the tariffs, and now he's trying to get the Supreme Court to allow him to just do the tariffs for, you know, for the rest of the presidency.

So it's kind of like this, this back and forth thing.

But I do think that their disregard for the judiciary is extremely dangerous.

I mean, every time there, there's a ruling against the administration, they're calling the judges activist, or they're saying, you know, this judge needs to be impeached.

Like, I Just feel like there's, there's no longer a, a respect for, for the judiciary.

And I think this is going to be something that gets worse as we see, you know, the constant attacks continue.

Well, and, and that's where I agree with you that the, the details are in local stories, the details are in local communities, partly because that's where we all live physically, literally.

But that's also where community organizing tends to have the biggest impact.

Am I correct in believing that you've moved over the last couple of months or recently?

Do you mind me asking where you moved to?

Yes, I've recently moved to South Carolina.

Back to South Carolina.

Right on.

And what is your local news scene like?

What is the local news industry like?

Is it heavily consolidated in terms of corporate control, or are there decent local news outlets that you're able to tap into?

Or has it become more social media, that it's like blogs and independent journalists like yourself, rather than more healthy or vibrant local media?

It's definitely.

We have lots of independent, well, limited independent news here and, you know, sources that are in the mainstream press, like, well, not in the mainstream press, but in local media like the Post and Courier, you know, the, the Live five news, all the, you know, News two is another one.

But it's, it's understanding like, for something like the newspaper, which is quite an interesting phenomenon, is the, the fact that the, the, the local press in itself is like, eroding.

And I feel like that's kind of the scariest part because, you know, when it comes to direct and representative democracy, you know, you're going to want to know what's going on in, in your, in your local area, and the local press holds local officials accountable.

And so, you know, stories like that are essential.

But I feel like it's, it's very painful to watch the erosion of, of the local press.

And I just feel like that's something that we have to continue to keep alive and to fund and support.

Otherwise we're going to see a lot more corruption and authoritarian antics.

Well, and do you.

I mean, you certainly prioritize key kind of catalyzing stories like the one you gave of Oklahoma.

But do you ever focus on really local in terms of your backyard and your neighborhood, and only because you sort of recognize that if you don't do.

May not be told, it may not be heard?

Yes, that is definitely something that I looked into focusing on.

I remember there was a story recently about a South Carolina woman actually that had a miscarriage and then she got arrested because of the anti abortion laws here.

So it's like covering stories like that that are extreme, that's happening in your state that you need, you need to stay focused on and be aware of.

But I also feel like, in regard to, like, our representative officials who are in Congress, it's.

It's insane.

Like Nancy Mace, for example, there was a story that just came out about her in Wired that she as.

As an actual elected Congress official.

It's even more embarrassing that this is.

She's representing us in South Carolina.

But she basically was so triggered by the fact that she had haters as an elected official, which everyone does, that she actually has several different burner accounts where she goes and responds to people's hate comments.

And then she has her congressional staff also do the same thing.

And her congressional staff told Wired basically, like, yeah, I mean, we could actually be doing stuff to help the constituents of South Carolina, but she has us responding to hate comments.

You know, here's the dirty secret.

I suspect that that is not atypical.

Yeah, I suspect there are a lot of congresspeople, that.

There are a lot of state legislators who are human beings, right, who did not think that the cost of public service is some public criticism.

And they've got fake accounts that they use to, you know, say the things they wish they could say when, when people talk shit about them.

It is embarrassing.

I don't deny that.

But I suspect it is not atypical in terms of the larger.

Do you think that elected officials, not just in terms of like, average people on the Internet talking shit, but do you think that elected officials see someone like you as a threat or do you think, are you finding it possible?

Are you at all trying to reach for comment?

Some of the politicians who either you think are interesting or that you think are heinous and that merit attention either way?

Definitely.

Yes.

I will say, when it comes to independent journalism and even just the local press, there is always a specific reporter or, you know, a specific newspaper that, you know, local officials or, you know, politicians in your state are going to find irritating because they just won't let go of a story.

And that's something I definitely want to do.

More special reports and more research into local stories that's happening here in, in South Carolina, but also in other states.

And it's something that I've.

I haven't really focused on for a second because moving back here, one of the things that I've just been completely catching up on is what's been happening in the federal government and other different moving parts But I feel like that's important as well.

Sort of kind of being like the, the voice that amplifies the corruption or what's happening in your state or in your city.

And, you know, not letting go of that, and that's, that's something to continue to cover.

Well, and the other thing I really enjoy in your kind of narrative tone or the way in which you approach your coverage is you do like to connect the dots, right?

And that was, I think, what's powerful about the example you gave earlier in terms of the Oklahoma politician, educator, bullshitter.

This is the kind of consequences of a larger political culture that the Trump administration creates is that you then see it manifest at the state level, at the local level, and that's where people can miss it.

And before long, instead of a single Trump, you got a dozen Huey Longs, right, who have instituted themselves, entrenched themselves in power, and it could take decades to remove them or unseat them.

Again, as we start to wrap this up, unless you've got topics or conversations that you'd like to explore, you know, on an ambitious level, if there was no limit to resources, we all know there are clear limits to your time.

What's your ideal future of the Jeremiah Patterson show?

What's your kind of roadmap for not just what comes next, but the longer trajectory?

I think I'm going to add another story first and then I'm going to answer that question.

Question.

Because another local story that is, is essential to cover.

And one of the things that I've been covering on my show for a while is basically what's been going on in North Carolina.

So, like, they basically had a Supreme Court election last year, and the Democrat on that seat, she won the supreme court seat by 714 votes literally for five months.

The Republican on this, the Republican who lost tried to contest the results of that election, even after multiple times, you know, like the Clay County Board of Elections in North Carolina said, no, you're not going to get this.

And multiple recounts reaffirming her victory.

And basically what it was was a concerted effort by Republicans not to really win the election, but try to find a way to install, you know, hint of discrepancies or conspiracy theories about voter, you know, voter indecency that happened in a way to get the election.

And he was super close because he had buddies on the North Carolina Supreme Court, you know, basically that said they would have installed him.

But it was a situation that took local press coverage, independent journalism coverage, and resistance.

Because if that story did not get the amount of attention it deserved.

We probably would be looking at, you know, the Republican there, Jefferson Griffin, sitting on the Supreme Court in North Carolina instead of Allison Riggs.

And so, I mean, that was a win for Democrats there.

She finally got sworn in.

But I think the, the other side of that story that is, you know, despondent, is the fact that Democrats, even though they're in power in North Carolina, there is like a limited way that they can do such because Republicans last year, when they were going out, you know, like the sore losers they are, apparently, my gosh, they wrote legislation that would curtail the incoming Democrats of incoming Democratic officials ability to actually govern.

And one of the things that, you know, the Republican, you know, Republicans did was put the.

It was the state auditor.

They put him over the election board in the state of North Carolina, even though Democrats are supposed to control because they won those seats.

And so no other state in the country has a state auditor that is in charge of their state elections.

But that's the only Republican that won statewide.

So now he's on there.

Well, and it ties back to the Oklahoma story, where part of the goal is not so much the victory, but to undermine the process as a whole, right?

To create doubts in the institutions, to create doubts in the electoral process so that you can end up with powerful governors, you can end up with powerful judges who can rule and last for decades.

The dogs here are in complete agreement.

As you can hear in the background.

The last segment we have on every metaviews, of course, is shout outs.

And this is where our dogs are currently giving their own shout outs.

My agenda here today has been essentially to give you a shout out in that the Jeremiah Patterson show on Substack is one of the areas that people can tune in.

And metaviews has modestly recommended 31 subscribers to the Jeremiah Patterson Show.

So hopefully after today's episode, more will sign up and hopefully pay for your fantastic services.

But do you have any shout outs?

Is there anyone in the news ecosystem or in the world at large that you want to say, hey, yeah, the Metiviews crew should check out?

I would have to say a couple of people to check out in independent media are.

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

There are several of them.

Okay.

I guess another one for instantaneous breaking news, but also good independent journalism that is on the ground and asking the questions is, of course, Aaron Parness, you know, a big one that's been getting lots of attention.

Midas Touch recently expanded their kind of network to like, have like a Health podcast in addition to it.

So that's a huge independent media spot to check out.

Of course, there.

And this is.

I gotta cut you there because normally I insist only one, because otherwise people can go on and on and on.

And this is where we're trying to wrap the show up, not keep it going any further.

Any final thoughts?

But before we conclude.

Final thoughts.

Okay, the midterms are coming up, so that's something to.

To be on the lookout for.

Watch who's running in your local House races, in your local senate races, in your local government.

And if you're just as enraged as you know, other people are about what's happening, then definitely consider running for Congress yourself or running for local positions yourself, because there's going to be, I believe, a surge of youth in these next elections to counter what's happening here.

Right on.

And I hope that is in a positive respect only because we are seeing a lot of polling data that a lot of young white men support the far right and support Trump.

So hopefully they're too busy feeling sorry for themselves to vote and show up and be active.

But everybody else show up at the ballot box.

You know what they say, vote early, vote often.

Thank you, Jeremiah.

Always a pleasure to have you on the show.

I suppose Metaviews may be one of the early sources of the history of the rise of the Jeremiah Patterson show as you continue to go on to international acclaim and success.

Thanks again, you yourself, everyone else, for tuning in in.

This has been another fantastic episode of Meta Views.

We are on the countdown to the end of season two.

We may have one or two shows left, but the season finale is coming up.

So stay tuned.

Then we'll take a little break and come back for season three.

You can find us on all the audio podcast platforms, on YouTube and of course on Substack where you can also find Jeremiah Patterson show and we'll see you all soon.

Stay fresh, stay cool, stay smart, and we'll talk to you soon.